Suggestions for new courses

[Jan-Willem van Dronkelaar]

@theluthier I feel its important to learn anatomy by their proper names. It helps differentiating the parts which makes stuff easier to remember. It also forms a shared language with other artists and, potentially, the art director you will work for. Its important for both receiving feedback as well as giving feedback.

[Kent Trammell]

“the teres major inserts onto the humerus from the base of the scapula” is much more descriptive and evocative for your brain than “there’s kind of a bulge here,”

There is a difference if you know that it’s “latissimus dorsi” or “serratus anterior”, rather than “that big muscle on the back” and “that fan-shaped thing, that is mistaken for ribs”.

I feel its important to learn anatomy by their proper names. It helps differentiating the parts which makes stuff easier to remember.

First of all I completely agree with you. The main reason I think the names are important for communication: Teacher communicating to student, student researching body parts for themselves, artist to art director, etc.

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Second, this is precisely why I’ve avoided doing a focused anatomy course. As an artist, I have never needed to learn the proper names to be able to form an anatomically correct/believable human body. Instead I learned that all the information you need is embedded in photographs/illustrations and the ability to interpret lighting and shading into 3d form. And as a bonus, visual interpretation works for every kind of modeling beyond anatomy.

However when I started teaching human body modeling/sculpting I realized it’s terribly inefficient to describe the human body without knowing the proper terms. But have you ever tried to learn anatomy from googling and youtube videos? 1) The names are in a different language and you’re never sure if you’re pronouncing them correctly, which is a major backfire perceptually to know anatomy names but pronounce them wrong. 2) Similar diagrams will point to seemingly the same area with a different name. So you never really know which is the right anatomical name. And there’s hundreds of anatomical terms to sift through in this way. 

We all know that there’s a ton of foreign and uncommon terms to use in order to interact with computer graphics: Fresnel, refraction, dielectrics, retopology, vignette, chromatic aberration, diffuse, and on and on. But the volume of anatomical terminology combined with being in a different language makes the learning curve particularly steep – And the benefit is ONLY to inform human characters. To achieve this I would have to do an exhausting amount of research, video watching, and cross-referencing to develop a reliable list of terms. Then I’d have to make flash cards to commit them to memory. And all that effort just to communicate anatomy efficiently, doing very little it terms of actually forming the shapes themselves..

Usually people point to Ryan Kingslien as the standard for anatomy sculpting education. And it’s well deserved because his stuff is as good as it gets. But when you google Mr. Kingslien you’ll find that he’s entirely attached to human anatomy. It’s his whole career. So it makes perfect sense for him to know anatomy terms and spout it proudly because it’s all he outputs. You don’t go to him for advanced shader creation or cloth simulation or how to create a short film, animation, or photorealistic environment creation.

I’ve always known that human anatomy/characters is one small piece of the broader CG journey; it’s never going to be enough for me to only do that and I expect most of you are in the same boat. All the more lowering our collective need to learn and store such terminology.
</vent>

I hope you don’t mind the transparent venting…You guys are completely justified to ask for an anatomy course that’s competently commentated with comprehensive terminology. (How about that alliteration?) And I’m not saying that I won’t scrape together the determination to accomplish what I just vented about. But please understand that you’re asking for a tremendous effort compared to other courses. I know the demand is high and I’ve been actively pondering the prospect for years. I think ideally I will be able to create a course or workshop (or both) that’s supported by competent anatomical terminology but is also true to myself in shedding light that the benefit is very limited for actual shape creation.

Wow, that turned out to be a lot. Thanks for listening ☺️

[John Sanderson]

@theluthier given that, I personally don’t think the course would be worth it.  CGCookie is a small crew, and so every course comes with an opportunity cost.  I would much rather get a stellar course on a subject that you are passionate about teaching than a “pretty good” anatomy course where you spend extra and arduous amounts of time in prep.  Not that I don’t think you would do a good job.  It’s clear that you put a lot of planning into your courses and care deeply about the quality of your work.  But like you said, the subject is available elsewhere, and cg is a broad field.  Anatomy maybe something of a gap in the CGC curriculum, but as this thread attests, there will probably always be gaps somewhere or other.  I would most like to learn from you what you would most like to teach.

[smurfmier1985]

@theluthier I agree with John. I’ll be looking out for your rock ground shader forge chapter 😊

[Jan-Willem van Dronkelaar]

@theluthier 

As an artist, I have never needed to learn the proper names to be able to form an anatomically correct/believable human body. Instead I learned that all the information you need is embedded in photographs/illustrations and the ability to interpret lighting and shading into 3d form. And as a bonus, visual interpretation works for every kind of modeling beyond anatomy.

I could not disagree more. While learning anatomy has many benefits the main two as far as I am concerned are these

1. Creating a sensitivity to details that you normally would not even notice (essentially improving your artists eye) 
2. Becoming less dependent on reference. (use it but don’t be dependent on it)

There is a definite difference in the work of someone who is a master of anatomy and one who just works by eye without a deeper understanding of the actual mechanics. The body is a functional machine, its appearance reflects that.

When it comes to anatomy its so powerful that I would almost consider it a shortcut/cheat to boosting your skills to a whole new level. I know nothing else that will give as clear a boost to the quality of your work. It was for me and I only seriously went for the head, the difference before and after was pretty nuts.

But please understand that you’re asking for a tremendous effort compared to other courses.

This is a very honest statement. It is a gigantic effort and, don’t take this the wrong way, in my humble opinion, outside of CGcookie’s offering. CGcookie offers great value for money but this is something for a specialist. I personally would not expect a high quality anatomy course from CGcookie.

Not only that, if I would go for an anatomy course I would specifically look for an artist who is a master sculptor and whose sculpting work I adore. Screw how good he is with materials, lighting or even composition, just mindblowingly good sculpts.

These are just my two cents.

Oh, and just for clarity. None of this means that I find Kent’s work below par. What I have seen from his stuff on character looks really great (loved the part on lighting a character; I learned a ton) It’s just that if I would want to learn anatomy I would choose to get it elsewhere. 🙂

[Pavel Mazanik]

@theluthier wow, that’s a wall of text, thanks for such a detailed response!

I completely understand your position. You’ve already done a tremendous job for existing courses and still doing with live streams and so on. It seems to me now like I asked you to drop everything and just dive into anatomy terminology like you have nothing else to do, which was a bit selfishly I suppose, and now I feel bad for this.

Maybe someday I’ll be able to create my own course on it since it seems like I’m pretty much obsessed with it 😀

[Pavel Mazanik]

@bowse oh, I understand, that there is plenty of anatomy tutorials out there. I was talking just about cgcookie and blender. But if making such a course is not worth the effort, I’m okay with it. 🙂

[Kent Trammell]

which was a bit selfishly I suppose, and now I feel bad for this

@nekronavt Not at all – do not feel bad! I vented a little too hard if that’s the result. I’m going to see if I can hack my way to a competent anatomy vocabulary and get a course out in 2019. Fingers crossed! 🤞

[Pavel Mazanik]

@theluthier 

Not at all – do not feel bad

Phew, that’s a great weight off one’s mind 😀

Maybe some anatomy workshop this year? 🙂 I think it can be a great way. Even without a workshop some CGC fellas doing anatomy stuff in their polybooks and by analyzing and criticizing it I learn myself. Can’t imagine how it scales with a large number of people involved.

[Kent Trammell]

I could not disagree more. While learning anatomy has many benefits the main two as far as I am concerned are these

1. Creating a sensitivity to details that you normally would not even notice (essentially improving your artists eye) 
2. Becoming less dependent on reference. (use it but don’t be dependent on it)

@3dioot We’ll have to amicably leave it at disagreement, at least in this specific context. I agree whole-heartedly with your first bullet, that training your eye to notice detail is crucial. I just don’t agree that studying/memorizing anatomy terms and structure is the only way (nor best way) to develop that skill.

My career as a 3D artist specializing in characters is built on 2 priorities:

1. Training my eye to notice and interpret detail on a purely visual basis.
   2. Informing my eye with head-knowledge about the subject. 

#1 has always done the most for me with helpful assistance from #2. #2 does little-to-nothing for 3D artist if #1 is lacking.

Becoming less dependent on reference is a rose-tinted goal. I used to think that’s what great artists did but I couldn’t disagree more at this point in my career. Talk to master artists and you’ll find that reference is a constant. If you’ve ever watched the extensive Lord of the Rings BTS, you know what I mean. The most recent example I’ve seen is Riot Games’ youtube series overviewing game art where concept artists discuss how important reference is. Based #2’s logic, as masters of their craft, these artists should be treating reference as optional at most.

The only situation I think #2 holds true is, again, in the case of a Ryan Kingslien. As someone who sculpts humans the vast majority of his career, I agree that by now he surely doesn’t need to look at a single reference image to sculpt a believable human body. Likewise for the artists out there that find satisfaction in creating one thing over and over, #2 should hold true for them. Where’s the fun in that though?

[Jan-Willem van Dronkelaar]

@theluthier 

I don’t see how were disagreeing unless you read my second bullet as someone choosing to work without reference while they have the option to do so. You do not always have perfect, unlimited reference at your disposal and its at these moments that having an intimate knowledge of the subject you are (re)creating helps immensely. 🙂

Based #2’s logic, as masters of their craft, these artists should be treating reference as optional at most.

I don’t think I’ve implied that. In fact I thought “use it but don’t be dependent on it” would emphasize I do not. /shrug

With that said you made your opinion on the matter very clear. You certainly don’t consider it the holy grail. Noted. 😉

[smurfmier1985]

@jgonzalez I was thinking, wouldn’t it be cool to learn how to make a fighting game? Something fast and fun like Smash Bros I mean 😄

It has everything:

• Environment modeling
• Level design
• UI design
• Character modeling
• Weapons modeling
• Texturing
• Lighting
• Rigging (I know Wayne is working on a pre production plan for a Rigging Bootcamp, if that comes to life, this would be a great way to put those skills into practice)
• Game character animation (my favorite 😉)
• Special effects like explosions and fire bombs and such
• Physics
• NPC’s with AI
• Coding -> maybe a combination with upcoming Visual Scripting? I’ve seen some videos from Unreal where they put the core mechanics in the C++ code (would be C# in Unity of course) for easy maintenance and debugging , and where they use Blueprints (in this case that would be Unity’s own Visual Scripting version) for easily adding things like weapons, pick ups and skills. There seems to be a lot of power in combining these methods.
• Building multiplayer is also an option.
• Everything I’m forgetting 😛

You could teach us how to make one level, so the scope won’t get to big (like with the FPS project). And then maybe also some lessons on how we could adjust things to add our own unique levels. 

Or maybe this is a big project regardless of the amount of levels? 

Anyway, could be fun 😊

 

[Jonathan Gonzalez]

@smurfmier1985 A fighting game is something I’ve been trying to do in my spare time, but it’s definitely tougher than it looks. Lots of quick actions combined with physics detection and animations that all need to work smoothly simultaneously. I’d really like to build a brawler type game like you mentioned. I’m fairly certain we’ve mentioned it a few times here and there through some CGCookie retreats so we’d be on board. 

The toughest part would be building a really responsive character system, the rest is relatively easy but the meat and potatoes are the characters and if those don’t feel great then it’s not fun. Nonetheless it’s something I’m looking into for my own personal projects as well, so if I manage to crack it then I’ll definitely be doing a fighting game project for CGCookie as well. 

[smurfmier1985]

@jgonzalez Awesome! Yeah I was afraid the character response part would be challenging… Been watching lots of game animation videos lately (because that’s where my passion lies) and it’s really different from animating for movies. Player experience is the most important part, and also the most difficult to achieve. Let alone all the physics, responsiveness and other things that come into play when you press the button. Still, I’ll be rooting for you to succeed 😄

Some inspirational videos, these are from an experienced game animator who is analyzing some of the game animation in Smash Bros:

Video 1 – Mario

Video 2 – Link

Video 3 – Mr. Game and Watch

In any case they’re fun to watch 😊

[Jonathan Gonzalez]

@smurfmier1985 It’s also something I’d probably rely heavily on Wayne to help with on the animation side. Those are definitely some great resources you linked to. Making me want to really dig deep into fighting game mechanics now, hah! I’ve been working on a boxing game for the past year on and off but I may restart the process with a fresh approach and look into making a really responsive fighting system. I have some great fighting animations I can use, it’s mostly about timing. As the videos mention, the movements are incredibly fast, so I’ll need to juggle that with impact detection and inputs. 

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